First, let me say I've been looking forward to anti-matter coming out all weekend.
I'm really struck by some of the last lines, that we need to ensure we can all envision multiple futures. While ive never been part of a band, I've worked, and quit working, in entertainment and broadly, its a field extremely susceptible to the passion tax. We already live in a culture that pressures people into defining themselves by their work, and anything field with a creative pursuit, something driven by real belief, is so easy to lose your identity to. I'm watching the multiple strikes happening right now across entertainment and non entertainment fields, and I am reflecting on how many of my favorite bands have burned out or broken up, in large part because of the increadibly extractive labor practices in touring music. There's not a one-to-one parallel here, but as someone who values music, I'd love to help build a culture where we prioritize individuals' health and well being as much as the music they produce. Thank you for another thoughtful and eloquent piece.
I remember Nathan Gray freaking out online about his new band The Iron Roses and how all the press was "Nathan Gray from BoySetsFire's new band!" And how much he hated that "from BSF.." I was one of those folks who wrote it up like that and didn't get it. "This is who you are!" I thought to myself.
But reading this puts it into such a different mindset and perspective that i didn't see before. How having that "From..." tag might hurt you in ways i didn't understand.
This was a real eye opener and I'm looking forward to that interview.
Yeah, I think there's a nuance between identification and identity-making. I'm sure Nathan felt a little strangled by that because they have clearly evolved so much, and most likely in a way that feels further and further away from "Nathan from BoySetsFire." In some ways, it's inescapable—and I get that. But I do think if we all moved forward with a little more awareness, that's the best we can do. x
I appreciate this post for many reasons. Thank you for sharing. My job is to teach high school. When I tell people that, I disappear and become whatever they imagine a teacher is. It's weird. I am not what I do. People often ask me about school, I try to derail them and talk about sewing. It frustrates people that I don't just want to exist in the world I work in which is really weird. Also, I loved reading about Jon Bunch. Did you intentionally use the phrase 'reason to believe' in the article? I would like to believe that was intentional. I spent SO MANY hours listening to Reason to Believe. I never got to see them or Sense Field or War Generation.
I love how Merlin pointed out labor practices of touring bands. As a kid, I figured they did it because they loved it. There is no labor. I had to grow up to see the actual toll music takes on musicians.
I was lucky enough to see Sense Field twice in the UK in 1996 and have probably though about those rapturous shows and Jon's incredible presence at least once every couple of weeks since.
I spent 2004-2011 in a band that really “went for it.” We did just under 1000 shows in that time. I turn 40 this weekend and have struggled with finding employment (among other things). This article (and the comments section) really got me. You adeptly described something that’s been a significant presence in my life that I have been unable adequately put into words Thank you.
When I first read this article it reminded me of my sister whose was a childhood friend of Dan rhatigan. She lives in Milan and when she came to visit (I live in Staten Island) she trekked into manhattan to see a movie with Danny she said “Danny should of invited you because Norman from Texas is the reason was there you like them right? Danny should have invited you too.” And I started thinking I never met you I only knew you from your music. I realized that musicians of bands are not gods. (I learned that listen when I met Ian mackaye. The last thing he said to me, (this conversation took place in 2003) “John am a human being.” But bunch optimistic behavior reminded me of something I read in book o have been reading but this danish architect entitled “how big things get done. He wrote, “you want the flight attendant to be the optimist not the pilot. Unchecked optimism leads to unrealistic forecasts poorly defined goals better options ignored problems not spotted and dealt with, and no contingencies to counteract the inevitable surprises.”
Again I find myself so deeply appreciative of your writing and perspective.
Like you said, I feel the internet has really compounded and intensified some of these issues you've put out in the really toxic ways. While I'll be the first to speak of the positives that the internet has provided; its easier to find new bands, share your love and joy of them, and for myself personally, reconnect with the bands I worked with years ago but lost touch with along the way.
But there are real issues with entitlement and 'stan' culture that really treats the people in bands as performing characters rather than real people. Whether its the way they are spoken about, or how they are treated when something goes wrong (see what happened to Paramore just this weekend when a serious/sudden illness flared up and they had to cancel/reschedule a show), there are these loud and demanding voices that seem owed in a way that I haven't seen before. Of course, did some of this happen pre 'big' internet? Definitely. But it was a lot harder to put it out there for people to see.
The loudest voices are usually in the minority, but it's difficult to hear the majority if they speak quietly. and the worst people have the bullhorns. It's why its so important to show kindness and humanity, actively, whenever and wherever you can.
As someone who's been trying really, really hard to start a part-time band, this felt like a warm hug. I want to make music because I love it, not because of money or to be famous or be nnown only for that, and I'm glad that someone finally put it into words. I feel like so many people now are like: "Well, what's the point in doing something if you're not going to make it your entire life and your career?"
I wanna strive to be more than "Mo from (Band)", and I don't want my entire identity wrapped up in it. People do that with my day job (I work in finance and everyone keeps trying to talk to me about it) and I've always been scared that people will do that with my band if we did anything full time. It's just nice to know that I'm not the only one out there.
My (part-time) band/label-life started in 2005 and stopped at the same time 6 years ago and finding/re-defining myself after that is a hard process I'm still struggling with sometimes.
Never broke this thought down to the name-thing, but reading this, it makes perfect sense to me.
Everytime I'm called by the name these 12 years carved into my personality, I'm thrown back to those times and my brain has to deal with the past and the fact it's not a present thing anymore.
This is beautifully written. As huge fan of both Texas and Sense Field, I deeply appreciate the perspective. You’re doing wonder things with your words.
I ‘m sorry to drone on about this but when I had that conversation with Ian I started asking him stories about things that occurred to him 20 years earlier. And Ian told me “when you don’t know where you are going slow down” am it reminded me about this psychology term called “the illusion of explanatory depth.” It is when someone (like me in this case) things he knows how a complex system works and knows actually has no idea how it works. A example of that is: majority of people who know how to read a bicycle when asked to draw an accurate pictorial representation of a bicycle they have no idea. The frame is always wrong, most people don’t know where the gears go. Etc.
It's funny that this topic came up. Yesterday, I was thinking about bands that have that one big record, and then break up, but are sort of beholden to that record like divorced parents to a child. For better or worse, those people will always be in each other's lives to deal with business for that record. I was specifically thinking about Braid yesterday as they're at the tail end of their short tour for the 25th anniversary of "Frame & Canvas." It would be interesting to see how they feel about what your saying or other bands that carry the torch for their big album.
Your article speaks to this, but I've seen it first hand as well. I have a good friend who was in a not necessarily heralded band in the early '90s, but got their dues later on. They've reissued their popular record a few times and have to have "band" meetings to discuss this or that for something that originally came out almost 30 some years ago. Like how long does that go on.? Every member of that band ended up doing their own thing post the band, some more successful than others.
I think the thing that I'm talking about is *agency*... Meaning that it's totally awesome to go out and celebrate your old record. It's totally awesome to put your band back together. It's also totally awesome to decide you're cool with just working in marketing or fixing race cars and never picking up an instrument again. If it's coming from a real place, I love that all.
The thing I'm more thinking about here is that being reduced to being "X from Band X" for the rest of your life, no matter what else you do, is something truly fucks with your sense of who you are and what you are capable of. It hurts your capacity for growth. And it's something that's often repeatedly hoisted upon you from the outside, something you can't control. So the main thing I'm asking for is the consciousness to allow people to become who they are, no matter what they did previously. Life is long. We've all got several lives yet to live. x
Don't get me wrong. I love these reunions. I don't care if it's for the money or whatever. The Avail reunion was and continues to be a blessing from the gods. Most of these people are our age or older, and we certainly aren't hardcore "kids" anymore and have lived many lives.
There's a bit of having your cake and eating it too here. How can you celebrate the past while trying to live in the present? By doing these shows, you're reminding people (and yourself) of what once was and what no longer is. It's like you're not sort of letting yourself evolve, rather than other people letting you. I'm rambling now.
Haha, not rambling! But I don't see it as an either/or. Living in the present by artificially ignoring your past isn't living authentically either. Like most things, it's a balance. "How can you celebrate the past while trying to live in the present?" By celebrating your past as a milestone and not as a peak or an end. The latter is what has fucked so many of us up. The former is just saying, "Thank you for the growth." x
First, let me say I've been looking forward to anti-matter coming out all weekend.
I'm really struck by some of the last lines, that we need to ensure we can all envision multiple futures. While ive never been part of a band, I've worked, and quit working, in entertainment and broadly, its a field extremely susceptible to the passion tax. We already live in a culture that pressures people into defining themselves by their work, and anything field with a creative pursuit, something driven by real belief, is so easy to lose your identity to. I'm watching the multiple strikes happening right now across entertainment and non entertainment fields, and I am reflecting on how many of my favorite bands have burned out or broken up, in large part because of the increadibly extractive labor practices in touring music. There's not a one-to-one parallel here, but as someone who values music, I'd love to help build a culture where we prioritize individuals' health and well being as much as the music they produce. Thank you for another thoughtful and eloquent piece.
I love the term "passion tax" and will take that into the future!
I remember Nathan Gray freaking out online about his new band The Iron Roses and how all the press was "Nathan Gray from BoySetsFire's new band!" And how much he hated that "from BSF.." I was one of those folks who wrote it up like that and didn't get it. "This is who you are!" I thought to myself.
But reading this puts it into such a different mindset and perspective that i didn't see before. How having that "From..." tag might hurt you in ways i didn't understand.
This was a real eye opener and I'm looking forward to that interview.
Thanks for opening up my eyes, this morning. ❤️
Yeah, I think there's a nuance between identification and identity-making. I'm sure Nathan felt a little strangled by that because they have clearly evolved so much, and most likely in a way that feels further and further away from "Nathan from BoySetsFire." In some ways, it's inescapable—and I get that. But I do think if we all moved forward with a little more awareness, that's the best we can do. x
I appreciate this post for many reasons. Thank you for sharing. My job is to teach high school. When I tell people that, I disappear and become whatever they imagine a teacher is. It's weird. I am not what I do. People often ask me about school, I try to derail them and talk about sewing. It frustrates people that I don't just want to exist in the world I work in which is really weird. Also, I loved reading about Jon Bunch. Did you intentionally use the phrase 'reason to believe' in the article? I would like to believe that was intentional. I spent SO MANY hours listening to Reason to Believe. I never got to see them or Sense Field or War Generation.
I love how Merlin pointed out labor practices of touring bands. As a kid, I figured they did it because they loved it. There is no labor. I had to grow up to see the actual toll music takes on musicians.
Wow. I did not knowingly use the phrase "reason to believe" in that way. The subconscious is a wild thing!
I was lucky enough to see Sense Field twice in the UK in 1996 and have probably though about those rapturous shows and Jon's incredible presence at least once every couple of weeks since.
I spent 2004-2011 in a band that really “went for it.” We did just under 1000 shows in that time. I turn 40 this weekend and have struggled with finding employment (among other things). This article (and the comments section) really got me. You adeptly described something that’s been a significant presence in my life that I have been unable adequately put into words Thank you.
When I first read this article it reminded me of my sister whose was a childhood friend of Dan rhatigan. She lives in Milan and when she came to visit (I live in Staten Island) she trekked into manhattan to see a movie with Danny she said “Danny should of invited you because Norman from Texas is the reason was there you like them right? Danny should have invited you too.” And I started thinking I never met you I only knew you from your music. I realized that musicians of bands are not gods. (I learned that listen when I met Ian mackaye. The last thing he said to me, (this conversation took place in 2003) “John am a human being.” But bunch optimistic behavior reminded me of something I read in book o have been reading but this danish architect entitled “how big things get done. He wrote, “you want the flight attendant to be the optimist not the pilot. Unchecked optimism leads to unrealistic forecasts poorly defined goals better options ignored problems not spotted and dealt with, and no contingencies to counteract the inevitable surprises.”
Again I find myself so deeply appreciative of your writing and perspective.
Like you said, I feel the internet has really compounded and intensified some of these issues you've put out in the really toxic ways. While I'll be the first to speak of the positives that the internet has provided; its easier to find new bands, share your love and joy of them, and for myself personally, reconnect with the bands I worked with years ago but lost touch with along the way.
But there are real issues with entitlement and 'stan' culture that really treats the people in bands as performing characters rather than real people. Whether its the way they are spoken about, or how they are treated when something goes wrong (see what happened to Paramore just this weekend when a serious/sudden illness flared up and they had to cancel/reschedule a show), there are these loud and demanding voices that seem owed in a way that I haven't seen before. Of course, did some of this happen pre 'big' internet? Definitely. But it was a lot harder to put it out there for people to see.
The loudest voices are usually in the minority, but it's difficult to hear the majority if they speak quietly. and the worst people have the bullhorns. It's why its so important to show kindness and humanity, actively, whenever and wherever you can.
As someone who's been trying really, really hard to start a part-time band, this felt like a warm hug. I want to make music because I love it, not because of money or to be famous or be nnown only for that, and I'm glad that someone finally put it into words. I feel like so many people now are like: "Well, what's the point in doing something if you're not going to make it your entire life and your career?"
I wanna strive to be more than "Mo from (Band)", and I don't want my entire identity wrapped up in it. People do that with my day job (I work in finance and everyone keeps trying to talk to me about it) and I've always been scared that people will do that with my band if we did anything full time. It's just nice to know that I'm not the only one out there.
Good luck with it, either way!
Great read and quite relatable.
My (part-time) band/label-life started in 2005 and stopped at the same time 6 years ago and finding/re-defining myself after that is a hard process I'm still struggling with sometimes.
Never broke this thought down to the name-thing, but reading this, it makes perfect sense to me.
Everytime I'm called by the name these 12 years carved into my personality, I'm thrown back to those times and my brain has to deal with the past and the fact it's not a present thing anymore.
This is beautifully written. As huge fan of both Texas and Sense Field, I deeply appreciate the perspective. You’re doing wonder things with your words.
I ‘m sorry to drone on about this but when I had that conversation with Ian I started asking him stories about things that occurred to him 20 years earlier. And Ian told me “when you don’t know where you are going slow down” am it reminded me about this psychology term called “the illusion of explanatory depth.” It is when someone (like me in this case) things he knows how a complex system works and knows actually has no idea how it works. A example of that is: majority of people who know how to read a bicycle when asked to draw an accurate pictorial representation of a bicycle they have no idea. The frame is always wrong, most people don’t know where the gears go. Etc.
It's funny that this topic came up. Yesterday, I was thinking about bands that have that one big record, and then break up, but are sort of beholden to that record like divorced parents to a child. For better or worse, those people will always be in each other's lives to deal with business for that record. I was specifically thinking about Braid yesterday as they're at the tail end of their short tour for the 25th anniversary of "Frame & Canvas." It would be interesting to see how they feel about what your saying or other bands that carry the torch for their big album.
Your article speaks to this, but I've seen it first hand as well. I have a good friend who was in a not necessarily heralded band in the early '90s, but got their dues later on. They've reissued their popular record a few times and have to have "band" meetings to discuss this or that for something that originally came out almost 30 some years ago. Like how long does that go on.? Every member of that band ended up doing their own thing post the band, some more successful than others.
I think the thing that I'm talking about is *agency*... Meaning that it's totally awesome to go out and celebrate your old record. It's totally awesome to put your band back together. It's also totally awesome to decide you're cool with just working in marketing or fixing race cars and never picking up an instrument again. If it's coming from a real place, I love that all.
The thing I'm more thinking about here is that being reduced to being "X from Band X" for the rest of your life, no matter what else you do, is something truly fucks with your sense of who you are and what you are capable of. It hurts your capacity for growth. And it's something that's often repeatedly hoisted upon you from the outside, something you can't control. So the main thing I'm asking for is the consciousness to allow people to become who they are, no matter what they did previously. Life is long. We've all got several lives yet to live. x
Don't get me wrong. I love these reunions. I don't care if it's for the money or whatever. The Avail reunion was and continues to be a blessing from the gods. Most of these people are our age or older, and we certainly aren't hardcore "kids" anymore and have lived many lives.
There's a bit of having your cake and eating it too here. How can you celebrate the past while trying to live in the present? By doing these shows, you're reminding people (and yourself) of what once was and what no longer is. It's like you're not sort of letting yourself evolve, rather than other people letting you. I'm rambling now.
Haha, not rambling! But I don't see it as an either/or. Living in the present by artificially ignoring your past isn't living authentically either. Like most things, it's a balance. "How can you celebrate the past while trying to live in the present?" By celebrating your past as a milestone and not as a peak or an end. The latter is what has fucked so many of us up. The former is just saying, "Thank you for the growth." x