Despite getting older, many of us still find ourselves in a constant dialogue with our most idealistic hardcore teenage selves. Frank Turner turned these dialogues into an album that needed to exist.
I apologize for being "that guy" who feels the need to comment on everything but I find it refreshing that there are people in my age group (40s) that acknowledge that hXc is something that was and still is an important staple in their lives. Plus these interviews touch on subjects that I think a lot about to. (getting older being, anxiety about the future) But I read a great op-ed piece in the New York times the other day from 2017 entitled; "We aren't built to live in the moment" by Martin Seligman and John Tierney. They make a great observation that provided great comfort for me and I hope it does for people reading this; "What best distinguishes our species is an ability to contemplate the future. Our singular foresight created civilization and sustains society. It usually lifts our spirits, but it's also the source of most depression and anxiety, whether we're evaluating our own lives or worrying about the nation" (I know squirrels bury nuts for the winter but those behaviors are all instinctive) But great food for thought anyway.
I mean, I think that's what separates us for sure. Animals are very now-oriented. Humans tend to obsess over everything but the now. Past, future, counterfactual fantasies. Imagine what it might be like if we all just looked at what things were as they are now.
I respect your point and it is a valid one but sometimes I think we as a people don't think about the future enough. I don't know if this answers your question but I was reminded of this great quote from the computer scientist Danny Hillis, "I think of the oak beams in the ceiling of college hall at new college Oxford. last century when the beams needed replacing carpenters used oak trees that had been planted in 1386 when the dining hall was first built. the 14th century builder had planted the trees in anticipation of the time hundreds of years in the future when the beams would need replacing."
I'm not sure you're reading my point the same way I'm writing it. "Looking at things the way they are now" is about experiencing something directly and not mediating it through our memories of the past or our anxieties about the future. It doesn't mean not preparing for the future or anticipating the next thing. It means understanding that something is happening right now and we can only truly experience the things we are paying attention to. That's what I'm interested in. 🙂
One of the best things I've gotten from Theravada Buddhism is the phrase "Right now, it's like this." Has definitely helped keep me calm and centered when I needed it.
As I approach 50 and still enjoy going to shows and seeking out new punk/hardcore bands, and still want to be in punk/hardcore bands performing live, I think about age a lot. Within the first few years of moving to Colorado I put out feelers about wanting to get a band going. A few folks got in touch and I was familiar with their current band. That was about all I knew about them. I was in my mid-40s at this point. We met up at a sandwich shop to get to know each other and it turned out they were all still teenagers living with their parents. Now, in the world of punk and hardcore, it's not all that strange for multiple generations of folks to be standing and slamming alongside each other at a show, but when I thought about being this person in his 40s and going to their parents' house for band practice, that was a bridge too far for me. I'm happy to say those kids are all still doing some of my favorite bands in the area (check out Direct Threat with an EP coming out soon on Iron Lung Records). I'm still trying to get that band going but finally meeting folks more around my age to make it happen.
One other bit that caught my eye was when Frank said "I also think there are elements of religious impulse that run through quite a lot of punk rock. That’s an unfashionable statement, but I think it’s true." This is a subject that Damian touches on quite often in his Turned Out a Punk podcast, and I agree. Between the various sects and ideologies and people we idealize and fetishize like deities (Ian, Henry, Ray, Sid, Joe...), there are a lot of similarities.
Utterly stunning read. So many insights from both parties involved. And yeah, some of it is seeing myself in the aging/identity reflection, but way more is about gaining perspective and, dare I say, a bit of empathy. Thanks.
"I think the governing thing about that age for me was a startlingly extreme sense of self-righteousness, despite my almost complete absence of understanding of the world."
Oof. Feeling absolutely seen here.
"I was dorky, ugly, fucking sad teenager. I was not on any cool list. I was not invited to the parties. And to me, that’s what punk rock is supposed to be. It’s outsider art for the people who don’t get invited to the cool kids’ party."
Absolutely. Like GEL put it: Hardcore is for the freaks. Hardcore told me there was nothing wrong with being me, no matter what other people said.
"I had to do a fair amount of recalibration—and exorcising the spirit of early Rollins from my thinking about the world and myself."
Oh god, yes. I fell into the same trap in my late teens and early 20s and thought that being closed off and alienated and self-punishing was what masculinity was all about. As I've gotten older, it's been easier to see how juvenile that was, and to see Henry as someone who had a lot of pain as a kid, and how that informed how he engaged (or didn't) with the world. Also as I've gotten older, I've started to like Ron Reyes-era Black Flag more, and I think, as trivial as that is, that it has something to do with that willful othering - it all just got so turgid and self-important after My War, and I think a lot of that was the young Henry Rollins driving it.
Frank played my favorite show ever in 2009. In a sweaty living room in a house two blocks from mine. The memory (and the videos) of it will never fail to make me smile.
I love this conversation! It took me days to read, because there is so much to contemplate and I wanted to savor and reflect on every bit of it. Thank-you, it’s just the recalibration my mind was craving.
Yeah your right. It reminded me of an interview I read with Ian Mackaye. Where he said that the present is the most important time frame. The past you can’t change and who knows what is around the corner. (Am paraphrasing here it was something along those lines.) But when I think of these discussions am reminded of this book “metaphors we live by” by George Lakoff. That discussions should not be seen in terms of war but as a dance.
I apologize for being "that guy" who feels the need to comment on everything but I find it refreshing that there are people in my age group (40s) that acknowledge that hXc is something that was and still is an important staple in their lives. Plus these interviews touch on subjects that I think a lot about to. (getting older being, anxiety about the future) But I read a great op-ed piece in the New York times the other day from 2017 entitled; "We aren't built to live in the moment" by Martin Seligman and John Tierney. They make a great observation that provided great comfort for me and I hope it does for people reading this; "What best distinguishes our species is an ability to contemplate the future. Our singular foresight created civilization and sustains society. It usually lifts our spirits, but it's also the source of most depression and anxiety, whether we're evaluating our own lives or worrying about the nation" (I know squirrels bury nuts for the winter but those behaviors are all instinctive) But great food for thought anyway.
I mean, I think that's what separates us for sure. Animals are very now-oriented. Humans tend to obsess over everything but the now. Past, future, counterfactual fantasies. Imagine what it might be like if we all just looked at what things were as they are now.
I strive for this very perspective...on a daily basis
I respect your point and it is a valid one but sometimes I think we as a people don't think about the future enough. I don't know if this answers your question but I was reminded of this great quote from the computer scientist Danny Hillis, "I think of the oak beams in the ceiling of college hall at new college Oxford. last century when the beams needed replacing carpenters used oak trees that had been planted in 1386 when the dining hall was first built. the 14th century builder had planted the trees in anticipation of the time hundreds of years in the future when the beams would need replacing."
I'm not sure you're reading my point the same way I'm writing it. "Looking at things the way they are now" is about experiencing something directly and not mediating it through our memories of the past or our anxieties about the future. It doesn't mean not preparing for the future or anticipating the next thing. It means understanding that something is happening right now and we can only truly experience the things we are paying attention to. That's what I'm interested in. 🙂
One of the best things I've gotten from Theravada Buddhism is the phrase "Right now, it's like this." Has definitely helped keep me calm and centered when I needed it.
As I approach 50 and still enjoy going to shows and seeking out new punk/hardcore bands, and still want to be in punk/hardcore bands performing live, I think about age a lot. Within the first few years of moving to Colorado I put out feelers about wanting to get a band going. A few folks got in touch and I was familiar with their current band. That was about all I knew about them. I was in my mid-40s at this point. We met up at a sandwich shop to get to know each other and it turned out they were all still teenagers living with their parents. Now, in the world of punk and hardcore, it's not all that strange for multiple generations of folks to be standing and slamming alongside each other at a show, but when I thought about being this person in his 40s and going to their parents' house for band practice, that was a bridge too far for me. I'm happy to say those kids are all still doing some of my favorite bands in the area (check out Direct Threat with an EP coming out soon on Iron Lung Records). I'm still trying to get that band going but finally meeting folks more around my age to make it happen.
One other bit that caught my eye was when Frank said "I also think there are elements of religious impulse that run through quite a lot of punk rock. That’s an unfashionable statement, but I think it’s true." This is a subject that Damian touches on quite often in his Turned Out a Punk podcast, and I agree. Between the various sects and ideologies and people we idealize and fetishize like deities (Ian, Henry, Ray, Sid, Joe...), there are a lot of similarities.
On that last point, how much do we glorify suffering in the present? Punk is so throughly Protestant.
Frank is such a gem. There are moments in his discography that just feel absolutely triumphant.
I appreciate you drawing him out (giving him space?) to talk in depth about his father. The question about discussing it with the subjects before writing the song is really interesting in this moment where another of my favorite songwriters, Jason Isbell is facing the consequences of NOT doing so on his most recent record (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-country/justin-townes-earle-widow-jason-isbell-when-we-were-close-1235004720/).
As always, Norman, it’s a privilege to read your work.
Utterly stunning read. So many insights from both parties involved. And yeah, some of it is seeing myself in the aging/identity reflection, but way more is about gaining perspective and, dare I say, a bit of empathy. Thanks.
"I think the governing thing about that age for me was a startlingly extreme sense of self-righteousness, despite my almost complete absence of understanding of the world."
Oof. Feeling absolutely seen here.
"I was dorky, ugly, fucking sad teenager. I was not on any cool list. I was not invited to the parties. And to me, that’s what punk rock is supposed to be. It’s outsider art for the people who don’t get invited to the cool kids’ party."
Absolutely. Like GEL put it: Hardcore is for the freaks. Hardcore told me there was nothing wrong with being me, no matter what other people said.
"I had to do a fair amount of recalibration—and exorcising the spirit of early Rollins from my thinking about the world and myself."
Oh god, yes. I fell into the same trap in my late teens and early 20s and thought that being closed off and alienated and self-punishing was what masculinity was all about. As I've gotten older, it's been easier to see how juvenile that was, and to see Henry as someone who had a lot of pain as a kid, and how that informed how he engaged (or didn't) with the world. Also as I've gotten older, I've started to like Ron Reyes-era Black Flag more, and I think, as trivial as that is, that it has something to do with that willful othering - it all just got so turgid and self-important after My War, and I think a lot of that was the young Henry Rollins driving it.
Frank is ace!!
Another deep, excellent interview.
Frank played my favorite show ever in 2009. In a sweaty living room in a house two blocks from mine. The memory (and the videos) of it will never fail to make me smile.
https://youtu.be/yy4dNQ5UVxA?si=nTM-spybq8uOWK0X
I love this conversation! It took me days to read, because there is so much to contemplate and I wanted to savor and reflect on every bit of it. Thank-you, it’s just the recalibration my mind was craving.
Yeah your right. It reminded me of an interview I read with Ian Mackaye. Where he said that the present is the most important time frame. The past you can’t change and who knows what is around the corner. (Am paraphrasing here it was something along those lines.) But when I think of these discussions am reminded of this book “metaphors we live by” by George Lakoff. That discussions should not be seen in terms of war but as a dance.