Hardcore's first decade was forged as a developing culture, its codes and traditions handed down by the elders. Time and growth rendered that practice as no longer viable. But did we lose something?
Elation and Dread is a perfect decription of the walk from a Jersey tourist like me to the bowery on Sundays. Eventually it was mostly just elation. And that's because there were elders who were from the same place as me but really became part of the scene let me and my friends in on the "rules".
Wow, I can't wait for the interview with Civ. When reading this piece it bought back memories of when I was in high school and I procured a vhs copy of "Live at the ritz '91" and I remember watching in amazement (this about 1993) . I distinctly remember the part of the vhs tape that had a short interview with civ and he talked about his career aspirations and he always thought he was going to a truck driver. When I heard that it blew me away. A young person like myself who wasn't a "careerist" was refreshing. (I went to a very cut-throat high school where it wasn't uncommon for teenagers to talk about becoming millionaires by the time they were 30. very toxic environment) Can't wait for the civ interview and I just ordered his book.
I’d forgotten about all of the strange orthodoxies around Docs. It wasn’t quite that bad in PDX, but you still had to know where to find them, and you better have been ready to explain why you “deserved” to be wearing them.
Looking forward to Thursday! It’s not hyperbole to say that “Start Today” changed my life.
The punk scene in Oklahoma City in the 80s was so spread out, with so few central meeting spots (a particular drainage ditch that was good for skating, the car wash near one particular gay dance club) that tradition never really took root. The only people who could get Docs where I was were kids out in the suburbs whose parents paid for them. I wore army surplus combat boots and didn't own my first pair of Docs until 1993 or so.
I can see hierarchy and structure serving a purpose in New York back then - like you observed previously, there was definitely an element of people taking care of each other in a diffusely hostile environment, and it makes sense to be protective of something that's valuable to you. Maybe that'd be seen as gatekeeping now, and maybe it would be gatekeeping, but it does make me a little sad when people are dismissive or incurious about where it all came from.
Back then. I could see that. I never really understood the idea that people would pretend to be into punk or hardcore or metal because they wanted to look cool, when those things were not really cool. "You really want to get football players starting shit with you and being called a public menace in the local newspaper? Okay."
Cliff I hope you don’t mind me calling you Cliff but I have a question. When I was in college I knew somebody from Oklahoma and he told me something interesting. He said people in the Midwest have a different perception of time compared to people from the northeast. He said being that Oklahoma is so spread out long drives aren’t unusual and aren’t seen as a big deal. He was surprised when he met people from the northeast who would complain about a four hour drive for example.
I don't know about a different perception of time, but definitely a different perception of distance. Everything is a drive from everything else, so you just take for granted that it's going to take awhile to get anywhere. It's a little bit less than four hours to Dallas, and it doesn't feel short, but a friend of mine and I used to take day trips there for record shopping (R.I.P. Bill's Records).
Thanks for sharing on the subject of Dallas I was reading a story about a Fugazi show that took place in Dallas. From what I read (and listened too the dischord Fugazi live series has a copy of this show) it is pretty surreal. The Dallas police department kicked the entire audience out of the club so Fugazi performed to an empty club but you can hear kids screaming from the outside of the club.
Growing up in small town Canada in the early 90s, I learned about the early hardcore history through zines and skate mags (a little MTV as well). I never had the opportunity to experience the true locations where hardcore was born but I learned about the values and traditions through the music and lyrics. I love hearing these stories as I compare them to my experiences. We did our best to be hardcore and emulate through Mailorder and record stores. Haha funny in hindsight. I’m happy the internet didn’t exist back then as it does today. Thanks for sharing these stories. 🙌
Elation and Dread is a perfect decription of the walk from a Jersey tourist like me to the bowery on Sundays. Eventually it was mostly just elation. And that's because there were elders who were from the same place as me but really became part of the scene let me and my friends in on the "rules".
Really well put Norm.
Wow, I can't wait for the interview with Civ. When reading this piece it bought back memories of when I was in high school and I procured a vhs copy of "Live at the ritz '91" and I remember watching in amazement (this about 1993) . I distinctly remember the part of the vhs tape that had a short interview with civ and he talked about his career aspirations and he always thought he was going to a truck driver. When I heard that it blew me away. A young person like myself who wasn't a "careerist" was refreshing. (I went to a very cut-throat high school where it wasn't uncommon for teenagers to talk about becoming millionaires by the time they were 30. very toxic environment) Can't wait for the civ interview and I just ordered his book.
As we talk about in the interview, his dad was a truck driver. So that might explain why his comment was close to reality!
I’d forgotten about all of the strange orthodoxies around Docs. It wasn’t quite that bad in PDX, but you still had to know where to find them, and you better have been ready to explain why you “deserved” to be wearing them.
Looking forward to Thursday! It’s not hyperbole to say that “Start Today” changed my life.
The punk scene in Oklahoma City in the 80s was so spread out, with so few central meeting spots (a particular drainage ditch that was good for skating, the car wash near one particular gay dance club) that tradition never really took root. The only people who could get Docs where I was were kids out in the suburbs whose parents paid for them. I wore army surplus combat boots and didn't own my first pair of Docs until 1993 or so.
I can see hierarchy and structure serving a purpose in New York back then - like you observed previously, there was definitely an element of people taking care of each other in a diffusely hostile environment, and it makes sense to be protective of something that's valuable to you. Maybe that'd be seen as gatekeeping now, and maybe it would be gatekeeping, but it does make me a little sad when people are dismissive or incurious about where it all came from.
Yeah, I would say it was less gatekeeping and more, "You sure you want to come in these gates?" Let's call it... double-checking. Haha.
Back then. I could see that. I never really understood the idea that people would pretend to be into punk or hardcore or metal because they wanted to look cool, when those things were not really cool. "You really want to get football players starting shit with you and being called a public menace in the local newspaper? Okay."
Cliff I hope you don’t mind me calling you Cliff but I have a question. When I was in college I knew somebody from Oklahoma and he told me something interesting. He said people in the Midwest have a different perception of time compared to people from the northeast. He said being that Oklahoma is so spread out long drives aren’t unusual and aren’t seen as a big deal. He was surprised when he met people from the northeast who would complain about a four hour drive for example.
I don't know about a different perception of time, but definitely a different perception of distance. Everything is a drive from everything else, so you just take for granted that it's going to take awhile to get anywhere. It's a little bit less than four hours to Dallas, and it doesn't feel short, but a friend of mine and I used to take day trips there for record shopping (R.I.P. Bill's Records).
Thanks for sharing on the subject of Dallas I was reading a story about a Fugazi show that took place in Dallas. From what I read (and listened too the dischord Fugazi live series has a copy of this show) it is pretty surreal. The Dallas police department kicked the entire audience out of the club so Fugazi performed to an empty club but you can hear kids screaming from the outside of the club.
Growing up in small town Canada in the early 90s, I learned about the early hardcore history through zines and skate mags (a little MTV as well). I never had the opportunity to experience the true locations where hardcore was born but I learned about the values and traditions through the music and lyrics. I love hearing these stories as I compare them to my experiences. We did our best to be hardcore and emulate through Mailorder and record stores. Haha funny in hindsight. I’m happy the internet didn’t exist back then as it does today. Thanks for sharing these stories. 🙌