The Shape of Punk to Come didn't predict hardcore's future as much as it changed it. Reflecting on its 25th anniversary, there are still some things the Refused singer would have done differently.
This is a much more frivolous comment than the others but I can remember with great clarity the singer of my band at the time walking into our rehearsal space and saying with disgust "Have you heard the new Refused record? It's got fucking techno on it."
Another winner, Norman. So glad you brought the zine back.
I put the record on this morning while reading this and I’m immediately transported back to the first time I listened to it. This album carries a fierce urgency to it that was SO missing at the time. I can’t imagine sustaining the level of fire and intensity of this record. I interpret some of what Dennis said as the ideology of Refused consumed and burned through the band itself. Same as when people burn out on activism. Carrying a one dimensional identity can bury us. The ideology of Refused didn’t have space for the humanity of struggle and the band itself (and the relationship between Dennis and the rest of the group) were the collateral damage.
Following on that, the late 90s were an amazing time because it actually felt like the “us vs them” of the 80s and into the 90s was tilting towards us winning. Pre 9/11, around the tech crash, neoliberalism showing its cracks with massive protests (Seattle, DC) - at least in America it felt like we could win as we approached the turn of the century.
This record, to me, is a reflection of that time. We could think about possibilities and think BIG. It has a palpable sense of “the structure is crashing and we are here to hasten the collapse and build something new.”
I appreciate how Dennis & Refused are resistant to nostalgia yet are willing to revisit the past without idealizing it.
I’d love to see a conversation between DL and Ian Svenonius after reading this.
I’ll never forget that show in Atlanta, where they broke up. Shape hadn’t come out yet in the States, maybe a month later. Being a fan but never seeing them live, I was expecting a more traditional hardcore performance, but the show ran very late and many people had left by the time they went on. They were still great and played a fierce set despite the sparse attendance and apparently breaking up that day.
I knew something was different once I saw how their clothes and hair strayed far from the typical HC band. When Shape came out it all made so much more sense. I don’t think I knew they broke up until much later, though.
The show was at MJQ, a dance club that did not have HC shows at the time so the vibe wasn’t great to begin with. MJQ would eventually open up the room next door (The Drunken Unicorn) for all kinds of shows, which became an ATL HC staple all the way until the pandemic shut everything down. One of the best rooms to see hardcore shows.
Great interview with someone I’ve been listening to for so long. I don’t think I realized quite how young they were when they recorded this.
"Because I could say shit like, 'Music is a bourgeois construction that only serves as a vehicle for the revolution' to someone who has been in the practice space writing riffs for ten hours, and they’re gonna be like, 'What are you talking about?'"
This took me right back to the James Spooner conversation and the difference between the political and ideological, and it's got me thinking about why the ideological so often seems so dour and joyless. If the political is personal, then to me it seems like the ideological is impersonal. Speaking only from my own experience, songs about people and feelings (even when the feeling is just frustration or anger) are much more resonant and moving than songs about ideas, let alone position statements.
I feel a greater sense of injustice from a song like John Prine's "Sam Stone" than I do from anything on CRASS' Yes Sir, I Will album, and I *like* CRASS, in small doses. When Rollins sings "Understand it, we're fighting a war we can't win/they hate us, we hate them/we can't win," I feel far more moved than someone singing "we must abolish the carceral state and recognize the police as the brutal hand of bourgeois capitalism." When someone's making music as a vehicle for an ideology, it's often so clear that the music isn't the point, and I find that alienating, even condescending sometimes.
But Shape is a rad album, and the aesthetic choices are cool - I think mod imagery and hardcore work really well together, and the music goes off. In hardcore, there's no shortage of albums that go unappreciated in their own time.
I feel like there's room for both Prine and Crass, for the politics of experience and the politics of theory. If we're getting academic about it, the two exist in a dialectic—neither is complete in and of themselves, but they must inform one another to enact change and the plans to make change.
Oh, for sure - I'm not trying to be prescriptive (or proscriptive), mostly just working through my own experience in hardcore in relation to these ideas. I did go through a period where I was on board with the ideological part, but like Dennis observed, I got to the point where I was looking at the big picture instead, and then the really narrow view was harder to relate to. Once again, as so much of the writing you do and the conversations you have here do, it seems to come back to growth and maturity, and what it looks like to be part of hardcore as you get older.
Just working my way back through the interviews now. One thing that occurred to me thinking back to the 90s (and my first time seeing Refused on that tour with Ink and Dagger in Germany) was how these guys along with later-day Unbroken, Orchid and a bunch of others spawned a whole artsy-smart hardcore look. Like, the outfits and haircuts were so different from the Champion sweaters and baggy shirts the youth crew kids were wearing, but also hugely influential. These bands would come through town and a month or a year later you’d see lots other bands wearing suits and sporting spiky hair and painted finger nails (and of course the music was similarly influential). The emo look kids still adopt today is sometimes attributed to My Chemical Romance but really I think you can trace it all the way back to these bands.
I know that Dennis and a lot of other kids from that era would cite Nation of Ulysses as a huge style inspiration. For many of us, they definitely made the connection in the most forward and impression-making way.
Norman, first off great interview about a great album. But I'm just confused about the concept of "prescriptive versus descriptive" maybe I can sum it up in a question. How would you classify a dictionary? According to the "prescriptive versus descriptive" concept, meanings in a dictionary can either be prescriptive or descriptive they can't be both? Right? (or am I missing something) Also I was recently listening to Adam tooze's podcast and he recently had a segment about the economy of Sweden, which for a capitalist country seems quite progressive. I can see refused being pissed off about capitalism in the USA but Sweden's form of capitalism seems completely different. For example In 1992 Sweden had a housing bubble that burst pretty much like the usa housing market in 2008 but what makes Sweden's story so fascinating is that the Swedish government not only bailed out the banks but went one step further and took ownership of all banks in Sweden. Which in the USA would be impossible. Well I will stop rambling but the shout-out to Ink and dagger was great. R.I.P. Sean McCabe. you're gone but not forgotten.
The prescriptive/descriptive dichotomy is about how we *use* language. It's a verb. It's the difference between what is actually there (something to describe) versus "how something should be" (prescribing rules to a word or concept). It's like the difference between saying, "He has played in a number of bands and does a fanzine, therefore, he is a hardcore kid" (descriptive) versus "A hardcore kid is someone who plays in a number of bands and does a fanzine" (prescriptive). The prescriptive use, when it comes to being complex human beings, is not very useful.
I'm VERY curious about the covers that Refused will be releasing. When The International Noise Conspiracy played here in Portland, drummer Ludwig took me out to my car and we listened to a Chain of Strength cover they did (that I don't believe made it out to public ears... perhaps it did—admittedly, I'm a bit outta' the "in the know" loop). Hope it is one of these songs that gets shared with the world, as it was really fun to listen to! Great work Norm and Denise, this was a fabulous read.
This is a much more frivolous comment than the others but I can remember with great clarity the singer of my band at the time walking into our rehearsal space and saying with disgust "Have you heard the new Refused record? It's got fucking techno on it."
Frivolous, and yet also amazing! Haha.
Another winner, Norman. So glad you brought the zine back.
I put the record on this morning while reading this and I’m immediately transported back to the first time I listened to it. This album carries a fierce urgency to it that was SO missing at the time. I can’t imagine sustaining the level of fire and intensity of this record. I interpret some of what Dennis said as the ideology of Refused consumed and burned through the band itself. Same as when people burn out on activism. Carrying a one dimensional identity can bury us. The ideology of Refused didn’t have space for the humanity of struggle and the band itself (and the relationship between Dennis and the rest of the group) were the collateral damage.
Following on that, the late 90s were an amazing time because it actually felt like the “us vs them” of the 80s and into the 90s was tilting towards us winning. Pre 9/11, around the tech crash, neoliberalism showing its cracks with massive protests (Seattle, DC) - at least in America it felt like we could win as we approached the turn of the century.
This record, to me, is a reflection of that time. We could think about possibilities and think BIG. It has a palpable sense of “the structure is crashing and we are here to hasten the collapse and build something new.”
I appreciate how Dennis & Refused are resistant to nostalgia yet are willing to revisit the past without idealizing it.
I’d love to see a conversation between DL and Ian Svenonius after reading this.
“Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.”
Talk about a declaration of narrow identity!
I’ll never forget that show in Atlanta, where they broke up. Shape hadn’t come out yet in the States, maybe a month later. Being a fan but never seeing them live, I was expecting a more traditional hardcore performance, but the show ran very late and many people had left by the time they went on. They were still great and played a fierce set despite the sparse attendance and apparently breaking up that day.
I knew something was different once I saw how their clothes and hair strayed far from the typical HC band. When Shape came out it all made so much more sense. I don’t think I knew they broke up until much later, though.
The show was at MJQ, a dance club that did not have HC shows at the time so the vibe wasn’t great to begin with. MJQ would eventually open up the room next door (The Drunken Unicorn) for all kinds of shows, which became an ATL HC staple all the way until the pandemic shut everything down. One of the best rooms to see hardcore shows.
Great interview with someone I’ve been listening to for so long. I don’t think I realized quite how young they were when they recorded this.
"Because I could say shit like, 'Music is a bourgeois construction that only serves as a vehicle for the revolution' to someone who has been in the practice space writing riffs for ten hours, and they’re gonna be like, 'What are you talking about?'"
This took me right back to the James Spooner conversation and the difference between the political and ideological, and it's got me thinking about why the ideological so often seems so dour and joyless. If the political is personal, then to me it seems like the ideological is impersonal. Speaking only from my own experience, songs about people and feelings (even when the feeling is just frustration or anger) are much more resonant and moving than songs about ideas, let alone position statements.
I feel a greater sense of injustice from a song like John Prine's "Sam Stone" than I do from anything on CRASS' Yes Sir, I Will album, and I *like* CRASS, in small doses. When Rollins sings "Understand it, we're fighting a war we can't win/they hate us, we hate them/we can't win," I feel far more moved than someone singing "we must abolish the carceral state and recognize the police as the brutal hand of bourgeois capitalism." When someone's making music as a vehicle for an ideology, it's often so clear that the music isn't the point, and I find that alienating, even condescending sometimes.
But Shape is a rad album, and the aesthetic choices are cool - I think mod imagery and hardcore work really well together, and the music goes off. In hardcore, there's no shortage of albums that go unappreciated in their own time.
I feel like there's room for both Prine and Crass, for the politics of experience and the politics of theory. If we're getting academic about it, the two exist in a dialectic—neither is complete in and of themselves, but they must inform one another to enact change and the plans to make change.
Oh, for sure - I'm not trying to be prescriptive (or proscriptive), mostly just working through my own experience in hardcore in relation to these ideas. I did go through a period where I was on board with the ideological part, but like Dennis observed, I got to the point where I was looking at the big picture instead, and then the really narrow view was harder to relate to. Once again, as so much of the writing you do and the conversations you have here do, it seems to come back to growth and maturity, and what it looks like to be part of hardcore as you get older.
So Excited for Shape 25 Next Year!!!
Just working my way back through the interviews now. One thing that occurred to me thinking back to the 90s (and my first time seeing Refused on that tour with Ink and Dagger in Germany) was how these guys along with later-day Unbroken, Orchid and a bunch of others spawned a whole artsy-smart hardcore look. Like, the outfits and haircuts were so different from the Champion sweaters and baggy shirts the youth crew kids were wearing, but also hugely influential. These bands would come through town and a month or a year later you’d see lots other bands wearing suits and sporting spiky hair and painted finger nails (and of course the music was similarly influential). The emo look kids still adopt today is sometimes attributed to My Chemical Romance but really I think you can trace it all the way back to these bands.
I know that Dennis and a lot of other kids from that era would cite Nation of Ulysses as a huge style inspiration. For many of us, they definitely made the connection in the most forward and impression-making way.
Norman, first off great interview about a great album. But I'm just confused about the concept of "prescriptive versus descriptive" maybe I can sum it up in a question. How would you classify a dictionary? According to the "prescriptive versus descriptive" concept, meanings in a dictionary can either be prescriptive or descriptive they can't be both? Right? (or am I missing something) Also I was recently listening to Adam tooze's podcast and he recently had a segment about the economy of Sweden, which for a capitalist country seems quite progressive. I can see refused being pissed off about capitalism in the USA but Sweden's form of capitalism seems completely different. For example In 1992 Sweden had a housing bubble that burst pretty much like the usa housing market in 2008 but what makes Sweden's story so fascinating is that the Swedish government not only bailed out the banks but went one step further and took ownership of all banks in Sweden. Which in the USA would be impossible. Well I will stop rambling but the shout-out to Ink and dagger was great. R.I.P. Sean McCabe. you're gone but not forgotten.
The prescriptive/descriptive dichotomy is about how we *use* language. It's a verb. It's the difference between what is actually there (something to describe) versus "how something should be" (prescribing rules to a word or concept). It's like the difference between saying, "He has played in a number of bands and does a fanzine, therefore, he is a hardcore kid" (descriptive) versus "A hardcore kid is someone who plays in a number of bands and does a fanzine" (prescriptive). The prescriptive use, when it comes to being complex human beings, is not very useful.
I love seeing a hardcore x linguistics collab, haha
I'm VERY curious about the covers that Refused will be releasing. When The International Noise Conspiracy played here in Portland, drummer Ludwig took me out to my car and we listened to a Chain of Strength cover they did (that I don't believe made it out to public ears... perhaps it did—admittedly, I'm a bit outta' the "in the know" loop). Hope it is one of these songs that gets shared with the world, as it was really fun to listen to! Great work Norm and Denise, this was a fabulous read.