For all of the division and debate it caused, the Krishnacore wave of the ‘90s left only a minor mark on hardcore history. But while most of us walked away unscathed, some people got hurt.
Very powerful writing. I'm really looking forward to the interview with Vic coming out on Thursday. So many questions . I will save most of them for later this week. I just have two book recommendations on the subject. Vic's autobiography; "train wrecks and transcendence; a collision of hardcore and Hare Krishna" and Nora Muster's "betrayal of the spirit: my life behind the headlines of the Hare Krishna movement." (Nora mentions the episode of the tv show "Lou grant" starring Ed Asner about the Krishnas called "sect". check it out on YouTube.) Eagerly anticipating this Thursday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSxaJ89ojKU
Nori is working on a TV adaptation of Monkey on a Stick. It should be interesting since, unlike the rediculous peacock documentary, I think Nori actually understands.
Would let be “the 1980s: the deadliest decade: season two episode ten entitled: “the Krishna killers?” I also noticed on Nori’s IMDb page she played a devotee in “death wish two”. (On a interesting side note there is a great documentary about cannon films , the company that made death wish two, called “electric boogaloo: the wild untold story of cannon films.”) also I believe in Joel Mciver’s book “know your enemy” you said Zack de la Rocha was a better guitarist then Tom morello. Wow that is interesting.
I think Tom is an awful guitarist, at least for the genre he is trying to do with RATM. To my ears, he plays that genre like someone you would find "testing out amps" in Guitar Center. :). But maybe that just betrays my inner jealousy? Probably not, though, since he is very cheezy. And there is always the possibility that he brought the right amount of cheeze to make RATM appeal to the huge audience it did. Zack on the other hand, is an amazing guitarist, who plays with a TON of feeling and zero MSG. RE the documentary, I am not sure if it has a name yet, but here is one article about it: https://deadline.com/2023/12/hare-krishna-expose-monkey-on-a-stick-sphere-media-1235661669/
This is awesome and very much looking forward to reading the Vic piece. I was lucky enough to hop in that van (or, maybe to was a school bus?) when 108 and Shelter did an East Coast thing. My 8 years as an uninitiated devotee were key to me understanding what I did and din't need in my life. Waking early and walking through Cleveland snow to get fresh vegetables for our small temple hardened me a bit. Haha. I took some of the culture with me, like wearing tulsi beads still to this day.
After reading the No Echo piece you linked, it's interesting - at least some of the people who protested Krishna at that show seem to have come to a more nuanced understanding over the years, which doesn't surprise me. But Porcell only begrudgingly admits that maybe that could happen, and continues to describe it as opposition to any spirituality. And I feel like that elides some things - the difference between spirituality and religion, and concerns about ISKCON specifically. But at the same time, "Quest For Certainty" is a pretty descriptive title in that regard. Certainty is assurance, and maybe not complicated. You know what you know.
I would have definitely been on the side of the protestors at that show, and still think there's something kind of icky about any kind of movement seeing an existing subculture as an untapped market or something. But I'll see something from Ray's Instagram, and it does seems like Krishna's doing something for him and Porcell that's meaningful, and it makes sense as an evolution from straight-edge. Spirituality and religion can be positive, but the institutions strike me as where it gets dicey.
Yeah, agreed. I mean, I really tried to keep the balanced perspective here. Some folks really found something in Krishna consciousness and have thrived with it. I love that for them. But enough years have passed that I do think that it’s important to hear the range of stories. And yes, those distinctions you mentioned matter in most of those stories, so hopefully this essay can a piece of what might become a more balanced and nuanced picture of this time. x
I think you did a good job of keeping it evenhanded and honest. I teach a class on stereotyping and prejudice (the hardcore to teacher connection is strong with me), and whatever the group - gang, religious cult, white supremacist organization, or something healthier - the reason any one person gets involved is usually very personal to them, there's no one single reason people join groups. Focusing on the personal is, I think, the best way to make sense of it.
I felt the same pause in the flow at that particular comment of Porcell's in No Echo. What he is doing there is pasting a cut-n-paste that ISKCON PR Department literally crafted in the 80s in regards to a Robin George court case. The blurb is basically, "don't lump us in." "Just because most religions are bad doesnt mean our religion is bad." But unfortunately for us, our religion WAS just as bad or worse (on its own smaller scale). I hate the smoke-and-mirrors approach to argument. I love argument, so I really hate trying to throw these illusory punches.
And it's so frustrating because it's an oversimplification of something more complicated. I've been thinking about this a lot since this piece and I'm looking forward to the full interview tomorrow, and it seems to me that hardcore itself can be a spiritual experience on its own, and straight-edge almost becomes a religion at points. So what's "spiritual" and what isn't...you're right, it's smoke and mirrors.
I met Bill as an impressionable High School freshman. I was also seeking so much at that time. In turn, I was along for the ride you have beautifully shared as a hometown friend. There were some issues at home for me during my high school years, and he was encouraging me that the Brooklyn temple was a safe place to
go. For him, there was so much power in having that choice. Immediate access (he was so impulsive) to food, shelter, “family” and completely closing out all the noise and uncertainty. Obviously, it never actually solved any of the problems, only delayed the inevitable.
I believe Bill joined a Buddhist monastery for a short period of time while he was living in Florida, before moving to Peru. I will always remember how magnetic and convincing he was in everything he did. It was only through his ever changing actions that I could see that he was terrified and didn’t have any sense of self 💔. Thank you for sharing.
Bill had a really beautiful face and eyes. He was really kind and gentle. Of all the hare krishnas there are only a handful of people I would have ever wanted to be an a room with if it werent for their being stuck in a temple with me. Bill would be one of them.
Kate, i remember you, i think! It is nice to be reminded of you.
Bill spoke very highly of you when he moved home from Philly. I heard you speak many times at Matchless Gifts. I also came with Gus once or twice to visit when you were in Towaco. I’m really looking forward to reading the interview.
This is an interesting and timely discussion at a time when cult documentaries are so popular on all of the streaming services and through many podcasts. I'm a fan of a lot of them and often find myself asking what the difference is between a religion and a cult. Maybe a lot of it has to do with individual experience. From Scientology to Mormonism and so many other groups, there are so many stories of people falling victim to awful things. Unfortunately, it sounds like Vic's experience was one of control, deceit, and manipulation.
I'm really looking forward to the interview with Vic. My band was fortunate enough to get to do a week-long west coast tour with 108 in 2009 and all four of them (Kate did not tour with them then) were so incredibly kind and gracious. (Hi Vic!) Even so, I didn't feel comfortable enough to ask about their current feelings on the Krishna thing even though I was quite curious. Reading the teaser quote in this article really piqued my interest.
I was always a pretty anti-religious person, but I always had a soft-spot for Shelter, 108, and Prema, all of whom I saw a handful of times at City Gardens and Wetlands. I vaguely remember Ray telling some story on stage that had to do with Gumby that my friends and I all got a kick out of. And I definitely rocked the neckbeads for a period of time as hardcore fashion accoutrement of the time. I even found a copy of the Bhagavad Gita in one of my college classrooms and read about half of it out of curiosity before losing interest.
I definitely thought it was interesting that within the hardcore scene, at least the circles I ran in, Christian hardcore was essentially considered an oxymoron, but Krishnacore got a pass. I eventually chalked it up to the fact that the bands mentioned above were all incredible bands, while I found all of the Christian hardcore bands pretty mediocre or boring. "Songs of Separation" and "Mantra" are still some of my all-time favorite albums.
I think one undeniable positive that came out of Krishnacore was how many kids got turned on to vegetarianism through it. I definitely still have a copy of The Higher Taste on my bookshelf.
Thanks, Norman, for feeling comfortable sharing your experience and to Vic for being willing to share yours with Norman and his audience.
I think one difference is just that “religion” is mainstream and “cult” is not. But another reality is that a religion plays a social role (I mean it has a function that serves society) while a cult doesn’t. Either it mainly serves an individual or it is harmful to a society.
It's interesting to me because I have never been a religious person, but I enjoyed how Ray posed questions in Shelter - his answers didn't work for me, but I liked that someone was asking them and I liked that a group was also saying "hey - this is kinda fucked up." 108 was such a different beast. Holyname came out and asked similar questions at a much different volume and the 108 songs have stood the rest of time for me. I may be getting my timing incorrect, but shortly after the infamous Shelter/108 riot in Boston (93?) with FSU l, my friend (who I would describe as always lost and searching for answers) really wanted to visit the Boston Temple. We visited and met with Gus SXE. He showed us around, pointing out all the little bits of Krishna around the temple that we should recognize from various HXC covers or art. I felt incredibly uncomfortable being sold religion in this way. It felt tacky and fake to me. My friend went a few more times without me, but never got invested thankfully. I can absolutely see how young people could get sucked in by this.
To be fair, I do believe that the hardcore kids who joined were largely sincere in their effort to share this thing that they found, that they were excited about. I don’t think many of us were “selling religion” in a cynical way. And at the same time I can see how that enthusiasm can be taken the wrong way. x
I didn't mean to imply that the kids doing it weren't sincere. More that i felt that these kids were being used in a way to sell to more kids. If that makes sense.
Very powerful writing. I'm really looking forward to the interview with Vic coming out on Thursday. So many questions . I will save most of them for later this week. I just have two book recommendations on the subject. Vic's autobiography; "train wrecks and transcendence; a collision of hardcore and Hare Krishna" and Nora Muster's "betrayal of the spirit: my life behind the headlines of the Hare Krishna movement." (Nora mentions the episode of the tv show "Lou grant" starring Ed Asner about the Krishnas called "sect". check it out on YouTube.) Eagerly anticipating this Thursday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSxaJ89ojKU
Nori is working on a TV adaptation of Monkey on a Stick. It should be interesting since, unlike the rediculous peacock documentary, I think Nori actually understands.
Would let be “the 1980s: the deadliest decade: season two episode ten entitled: “the Krishna killers?” I also noticed on Nori’s IMDb page she played a devotee in “death wish two”. (On a interesting side note there is a great documentary about cannon films , the company that made death wish two, called “electric boogaloo: the wild untold story of cannon films.”) also I believe in Joel Mciver’s book “know your enemy” you said Zack de la Rocha was a better guitarist then Tom morello. Wow that is interesting.
I think Tom is an awful guitarist, at least for the genre he is trying to do with RATM. To my ears, he plays that genre like someone you would find "testing out amps" in Guitar Center. :). But maybe that just betrays my inner jealousy? Probably not, though, since he is very cheezy. And there is always the possibility that he brought the right amount of cheeze to make RATM appeal to the huge audience it did. Zack on the other hand, is an amazing guitarist, who plays with a TON of feeling and zero MSG. RE the documentary, I am not sure if it has a name yet, but here is one article about it: https://deadline.com/2023/12/hare-krishna-expose-monkey-on-a-stick-sphere-media-1235661669/
This is awesome and very much looking forward to reading the Vic piece. I was lucky enough to hop in that van (or, maybe to was a school bus?) when 108 and Shelter did an East Coast thing. My 8 years as an uninitiated devotee were key to me understanding what I did and din't need in my life. Waking early and walking through Cleveland snow to get fresh vegetables for our small temple hardened me a bit. Haha. I took some of the culture with me, like wearing tulsi beads still to this day.
After reading the No Echo piece you linked, it's interesting - at least some of the people who protested Krishna at that show seem to have come to a more nuanced understanding over the years, which doesn't surprise me. But Porcell only begrudgingly admits that maybe that could happen, and continues to describe it as opposition to any spirituality. And I feel like that elides some things - the difference between spirituality and religion, and concerns about ISKCON specifically. But at the same time, "Quest For Certainty" is a pretty descriptive title in that regard. Certainty is assurance, and maybe not complicated. You know what you know.
I would have definitely been on the side of the protestors at that show, and still think there's something kind of icky about any kind of movement seeing an existing subculture as an untapped market or something. But I'll see something from Ray's Instagram, and it does seems like Krishna's doing something for him and Porcell that's meaningful, and it makes sense as an evolution from straight-edge. Spirituality and religion can be positive, but the institutions strike me as where it gets dicey.
Yeah, agreed. I mean, I really tried to keep the balanced perspective here. Some folks really found something in Krishna consciousness and have thrived with it. I love that for them. But enough years have passed that I do think that it’s important to hear the range of stories. And yes, those distinctions you mentioned matter in most of those stories, so hopefully this essay can a piece of what might become a more balanced and nuanced picture of this time. x
I think you did a good job of keeping it evenhanded and honest. I teach a class on stereotyping and prejudice (the hardcore to teacher connection is strong with me), and whatever the group - gang, religious cult, white supremacist organization, or something healthier - the reason any one person gets involved is usually very personal to them, there's no one single reason people join groups. Focusing on the personal is, I think, the best way to make sense of it.
I felt the same pause in the flow at that particular comment of Porcell's in No Echo. What he is doing there is pasting a cut-n-paste that ISKCON PR Department literally crafted in the 80s in regards to a Robin George court case. The blurb is basically, "don't lump us in." "Just because most religions are bad doesnt mean our religion is bad." But unfortunately for us, our religion WAS just as bad or worse (on its own smaller scale). I hate the smoke-and-mirrors approach to argument. I love argument, so I really hate trying to throw these illusory punches.
And it's so frustrating because it's an oversimplification of something more complicated. I've been thinking about this a lot since this piece and I'm looking forward to the full interview tomorrow, and it seems to me that hardcore itself can be a spiritual experience on its own, and straight-edge almost becomes a religion at points. So what's "spiritual" and what isn't...you're right, it's smoke and mirrors.
I'm a little out of it, do Ray and Porcell still consider themselves devotees?
They do. They are both very much still practicing devotees.
I met Bill as an impressionable High School freshman. I was also seeking so much at that time. In turn, I was along for the ride you have beautifully shared as a hometown friend. There were some issues at home for me during my high school years, and he was encouraging me that the Brooklyn temple was a safe place to
go. For him, there was so much power in having that choice. Immediate access (he was so impulsive) to food, shelter, “family” and completely closing out all the noise and uncertainty. Obviously, it never actually solved any of the problems, only delayed the inevitable.
I believe Bill joined a Buddhist monastery for a short period of time while he was living in Florida, before moving to Peru. I will always remember how magnetic and convincing he was in everything he did. It was only through his ever changing actions that I could see that he was terrified and didn’t have any sense of self 💔. Thank you for sharing.
Bill had a really beautiful face and eyes. He was really kind and gentle. Of all the hare krishnas there are only a handful of people I would have ever wanted to be an a room with if it werent for their being stuck in a temple with me. Bill would be one of them.
Kate, i remember you, i think! It is nice to be reminded of you.
Bill spoke very highly of you when he moved home from Philly. I heard you speak many times at Matchless Gifts. I also came with Gus once or twice to visit when you were in Towaco. I’m really looking forward to reading the interview.
This was really interesting, thank you for shedding light on this small corner of history.
This is an interesting and timely discussion at a time when cult documentaries are so popular on all of the streaming services and through many podcasts. I'm a fan of a lot of them and often find myself asking what the difference is between a religion and a cult. Maybe a lot of it has to do with individual experience. From Scientology to Mormonism and so many other groups, there are so many stories of people falling victim to awful things. Unfortunately, it sounds like Vic's experience was one of control, deceit, and manipulation.
I'm really looking forward to the interview with Vic. My band was fortunate enough to get to do a week-long west coast tour with 108 in 2009 and all four of them (Kate did not tour with them then) were so incredibly kind and gracious. (Hi Vic!) Even so, I didn't feel comfortable enough to ask about their current feelings on the Krishna thing even though I was quite curious. Reading the teaser quote in this article really piqued my interest.
I was always a pretty anti-religious person, but I always had a soft-spot for Shelter, 108, and Prema, all of whom I saw a handful of times at City Gardens and Wetlands. I vaguely remember Ray telling some story on stage that had to do with Gumby that my friends and I all got a kick out of. And I definitely rocked the neckbeads for a period of time as hardcore fashion accoutrement of the time. I even found a copy of the Bhagavad Gita in one of my college classrooms and read about half of it out of curiosity before losing interest.
I definitely thought it was interesting that within the hardcore scene, at least the circles I ran in, Christian hardcore was essentially considered an oxymoron, but Krishnacore got a pass. I eventually chalked it up to the fact that the bands mentioned above were all incredible bands, while I found all of the Christian hardcore bands pretty mediocre or boring. "Songs of Separation" and "Mantra" are still some of my all-time favorite albums.
I think one undeniable positive that came out of Krishnacore was how many kids got turned on to vegetarianism through it. I definitely still have a copy of The Higher Taste on my bookshelf.
Thanks, Norman, for feeling comfortable sharing your experience and to Vic for being willing to share yours with Norman and his audience.
I think one difference is just that “religion” is mainstream and “cult” is not. But another reality is that a religion plays a social role (I mean it has a function that serves society) while a cult doesn’t. Either it mainly serves an individual or it is harmful to a society.
It's interesting to me because I have never been a religious person, but I enjoyed how Ray posed questions in Shelter - his answers didn't work for me, but I liked that someone was asking them and I liked that a group was also saying "hey - this is kinda fucked up." 108 was such a different beast. Holyname came out and asked similar questions at a much different volume and the 108 songs have stood the rest of time for me. I may be getting my timing incorrect, but shortly after the infamous Shelter/108 riot in Boston (93?) with FSU l, my friend (who I would describe as always lost and searching for answers) really wanted to visit the Boston Temple. We visited and met with Gus SXE. He showed us around, pointing out all the little bits of Krishna around the temple that we should recognize from various HXC covers or art. I felt incredibly uncomfortable being sold religion in this way. It felt tacky and fake to me. My friend went a few more times without me, but never got invested thankfully. I can absolutely see how young people could get sucked in by this.
To be fair, I do believe that the hardcore kids who joined were largely sincere in their effort to share this thing that they found, that they were excited about. I don’t think many of us were “selling religion” in a cynical way. And at the same time I can see how that enthusiasm can be taken the wrong way. x
I didn't mean to imply that the kids doing it weren't sincere. More that i felt that these kids were being used in a way to sell to more kids. If that makes sense.
that makes so much sense, it hurts.